there is a narrow lead for president obama. so romney needs to make the case affirmatively for his program and why it's better than the president's. this is not just a referendum. this was the romney theory going in. he needs to prove that he's a better choice for the next four years. >> people are still persuadable. 15% is a pretty big number. if you look at undecided voters in most polls it's around 6%. but rich is right. people will pay attention to this and they will look for something maybe to make them change their minds for people who aren't completely thrilled about their choice which actually i think in both parties it's most people. most people aren't that excited about their choice. but it's mostly the independent voters they will have to focus on. bill: you make the case this debate is really for them. the persuadables. >> it's not just for them. it's for those in certain states. it's great that we can talk about the race, what's happening nationally. but what matters is what's happening in battle ground states. and